tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35873213.post6126483041235866895..comments2023-06-01T07:42:09.896-05:00Comments on Ruminations: Cossackhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00173376043295568270noreply@blogger.comBlogger2125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35873213.post-32766363452412709192009-08-08T15:49:36.926-05:002009-08-08T15:49:36.926-05:00As to #1, I tend to take the opposite tack, I beli...<i>As to #1, I tend to take the opposite tack, I believe that the onus is on you to prove that the US/NGOs didn't have some role in the demonstrations. That is my point, we've not only been involved in Iran since the 80s, as I pointed out, it was Kermit and the CIA that were involved in the 1953 overthrow of Mossadegg. It is undeniable that the CIA/NGOs were involved in the overthrow of Milošević, the color revolutions in Georgia, Ukraine and the Stans and the attempted color revolution in Belorus.<br /> <br />As to #2, I'm not saying that there isn't a lot of native discontent in Iran (as I mentioned, there also was native discontent in Venezuela and Honduras). I'm also not saying that the demonstrators in Iran, many of them, have visceral anger and disagreement with the system. However, do you think that many of the teabagger Town Hall disrupters also don't have visceral anger at Obama (I'm discounting all those paid for shills; I'm saying the crowds in general)? What I am saying is that it is fully within the realm of possibility (and, judging from the past track record, probability) that the native discontent could well be directed and channelled by the CIA/NGOs.<br /> <br />Don't get me wrong, I too would be more than happy to see the theocrats and mullahs dethroned. All that I am saying is that we should be very cautious as to "what we know" when, in truth, we know very little.</i><br /><br />I think you've missed my points, too. Why should the onus be on me to prove that the US gov't or affiliated NGO's do or don't have a hand in what's going on in Iran (especially since you're the one who'd broached the subject)? I would think that, if our shadowy presence was as deeply ingrained in Iranian affairs as you suggest, it would be of a militant/radical nature and would be reflected in the voice of the people. Yet we're not hearing anything more radical other than the occasional, "Death to Khamenei!" shout. They're not calling for an overthrow of the established order, just for a reinstatement of the democracy-within-a-theocracy system (which we all know is just an illusion of democracy).<br /><br />You can't merely superimpose a 1953 template over what's going on in 2009 and say that the Eisenhower-era hugger mugger games would work equally well there and now. It wouldn't. Iran is a radically different country than the one we'd radically altered 56 years ago.<br /><br />Again, I state: What's going on in Iran is politically-based, not religiously. If we were as proactive as you seem to state, we'd be seeing more clashes between Shia and Sunni (which was always Cheney's aim. Read Sy Hersh's "The Misdirection"). Yet I get the impression that Mousavi's coalition is made up of more than just Sunnis and Kurds (which are basically secular Sunnis). I'm convinced that many of them are also moderate and secular Shias who are sick of the hardline Shi'ite order on the Ruling Council.<br /><br />And, yes, the only thing that really emotionally engages the town hall "protesters" is their mutual racist hatred of Obama and everything he stands for. They're completely incapable of appreciating the irony that he plans on doing more favors for the HMOs and Big Pharma companies that are fanning them out than he will ever do for us. I'm sure that over 90% of them don't even know about that secret deal that they cut with Big Pharma that would cap any payments demanded by the gov't at $80 billion.<br /><br />But they just as plainly don't constitute the majority of the American people as the pro-Ahmadinejad faction represents the majority of their country.jurassicporkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01673461210301442978noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35873213.post-11249852589538097722009-08-08T08:33:08.621-05:002009-08-08T08:33:08.621-05:00OK, Cos, your assertions only hold water if you ca...OK, Cos, your assertions only hold water if you can prove two things:<br /><br />#1, that we actually have a hand in what's going on in post-election Iran. To be sure, we have operatives on their soil right now, still carrying out Cheney's agenda. We always have since at least the early 80's. I'm living proof of that. But we have no proof that any so-called NGO or US government entity is stoking the flames of revolution, otherwise someone would've said something by now and the Iranians wouldn't be content with a fair election and a reform president still operating under the authority of a despotic Supreme Ruler instead of the overthrow of Khamenei.<br /><br />If we're doing anything behind the lines, we'd be seeing Shia vs Sunni, which was Cheney's aim all along. We're not seeing so much of that as we are an incidentally Shi'ite government being challenged and opposed by young democracy-minded voters. This is political, not religious.<br /><br />#2 I cannot believe that you, of all people, would even suggest that the Iranian rage at the fixed election results doesn't represent more than a small segment of the Iranian population. The protests have been largely spontaneous (which further erodes at the theory that a US NGO was behind the scenes, pulling the strings). The demonstrations aren't staged and organized as much as they're flash mobs, with Twitter, Facebook and Myspace (which I don't think were around in 1953 when the Shah came to power). <br /><br />However, it's been a sustained, admirable effort on the part of the Iranian people, especially the young and the women, and I believe the only reason the mobs weren't bigger was because of the streets' incapacity to hold more. Several times since the June 12th elections we'd seen hundreds of thousands flooding the streets of Tehran and elsewhere in a human river.<br /><br />To equate this very real protest movement with the handfuls of Astroturf wingnuts we're seeing at these Town Halls who are straining after the effect of consensus is, frankly, insulting to the Iranian people who are actually dying.jurassicporkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01673461210301442978noreply@blogger.com